Episode Intro: Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. I am Brett Kistler, and I am here with my co-host Joe Hudson.
Brett: Good morning.
Joe: Good morning, Brett. How are you doing?
Brett: Doing well. I just got back from an experience I found very fascinating. I want to keep the details general, but there was a personal development event that I went to, a retreat, that I found very fascinating. I really loved a lot of what was being taught, and there was also some aspect, component, that rubbed me the wrong way. In this particular case, the flavor of it was these are the ways we can free ourselves and the world needs this. The world needs us to free ourselves from our constraints so that we can heal the world by healing ourselves, but there was a little bit of pressure in it. I sat with that through the entire retreat with this juxtaposition of there is so much goodness here and also there is this feeling of pressure. I could feel it in the people around me, buying it and saying yes, this is needed. It brought up this topic for me. There is so much out there that people can explore, whether it is a spiritual path, meditation practice, a self development workshop, a psychedelic facilitator they might sit with, simply a meditation app, a church or an AA group. There is so much out there, and that was one particular example that I see in many of them. I just wanted to have a conversation about what some of the signs are of something you might want to look into with a teacher or a path or practice. I don't want to use the words 'red flags', but what are some of the dynamics that can occur?
Joe: I would say there are some red flags and some also humanity. I think those get confused often. To be specific, there is no such thing as a perfect path. If you believe it, then it is a faith because all paths come from human consciousness. There is such a thing as a perfect human consciousness. In fact, I would say one of the signs there is wonkiness in a path is the idea there is some perfection that can be reached and then you are done. I think that is part of what could be wonky. There is no such thing as the perfect teacher or the perfect path or anything like that. At the same time, there are some absolutely dangerous ones. What is even weirder than that is oftentimes the folks that I know end up in some of these dangerous paths, often that's what they needed. It is what they fell for, and therefore, it is the hole in the consciousness they need to look at. Hopefully, nobody needs to be branded or brainwashed. There have been cases of people neutering themselves or killing themselves, like Jim Jones.
There are obviously some red flags there, and there is also a process in that, too. I have seen paths and teachers go from pretty healthy to pretty wonky. Once, I saw one go from wonky to more and more healthy, which was a fascinating journey to see. I think it is a really good discussion. I think I would frame it as what to look for when you are trying to figure out how healthy a path is, but the other piece is that everybody comes with that kind of skepticism of the path. Oftentimes people don't get the most they can out of a practice because they are finding the faults in the system or the teacher. Finding the faults are important, so it is this weird thing. How do you actually absorb everything and then discern instead of not absorbing it because of discernment. It is a tricky balance, and there is no perfect way to do it.
Brett: I had some hesitance to use the word 'red flags' because once somebody is looking for red flags, you will find them everywhere, especially if you are stepping into a process that is really powerful. It will bring you into resistance, and one of the first ways many people's resistance will show it is in criticizing, finding all the ways it is wrong, putting yourself above it, separating yourself from it, and separating yourself from the group. Those are beautiful ways to block the process.
Joe: Those are also beautiful ways to make a teacher go nuts, but let's first talk about what to look for and then let's talk about how the interaction between the group, the student and the teacher can all be in a downward spiral or upward spiral. How about you go through the things that you see as red flags or the way you would judge how functional or a teaching is?
05:55 Brett: In general, the first thing that comes up is certainty. If it is being taught with certainty, I mean there can be conviction and belief in the power of the practice and if that's not held with wonder for its own blind spots with space for resistance or dissent to arise and also there is discernment in how much of that you allow to arise as a facilitator and a container. There is a bit of a balancing act there, and there is also recognizing where that rebellion is and actually just trying to break the container. There is that balancing act, and that's one of the things I would see. In general, if somebody is speaking to me with absolute certainty or if I catch myself speaking with absolute certainty, there is a sign that there is something I am not willing to experience, probably some form of helplessness or not knowing. If I see that in a teacher, then I am curious about that.
Joe: I think often talking with certainty is a really important part of teaching or people don't want to listen. For me, the way I would describe it is identification, if the person is identified with their teaching and they think their teaching is the right way. I speak with certainty but at the same time if somebody says I am full of shit, I say absolutely. The other day I was with a CEO, for instance, and they told me I had made something up and I said yes, just like you made up your company. We are just making stuff up. That's how this works.
To be able to be in that space and not identified with the teaching or the way. You are right about certainty in the fact that even though someone speaks with certainty, it doesn't mean they will defend their teaching or that defensiveness crops up, which is a red flag. What else do you see?
08:00 Brett: Another one would be on one side of the coin it is a gatekeeping of authority and on the other side of the coin it is not continuously referring back to the authority within the student or within the guest, participant or any individual or co-facilitator. A lot of the ways that might show up is this a thousand year old tradition and my teacher bestowed this upon me, and I am reluctant to do it. If you want to be a teacher, you should not be a teacher. It is only if you are dragged into it. That's a separate point there.
This is another one where it is an interesting paradox. If you have a tradition that's really powerful and you let anyone do one workshop and then teach it themselves, you are going to dilute what it is that you are doing.
Joe: I would argue it is unethical.
Brett: Because the powerful components of it will get adopted by an inexperienced teacher's neurosis and they will use it to control or create the situation that recreates the trauma they are currently playing out. It is another one of those paradoxes. We go to a facilitator, teacher or coach because we expect they have something to offer us that if we have it in us, it feels obscured and we are looking for help with that. There are many times where people are really happy to be in that position, and say they are connected to the spirits and they say this about what you should do. Things get wonky from there.
Joe: The way I speak to this one is delegation of authority, meaning if the people are delegating their authority to a teacher or the teacher is assuming authority over students. That can usually look like a very strong hierarchy or gatekeepers to some levels of power. That's usually a sign of it. If the teacher isn't directly occasionally saying the truth is in you, it is not in me, that's a really important sign that there is something else going on. I would say there is more dysfunction in that situation, what would make a teacher want to have the authority over people. It doesn't mean they might not know stuff that you don't know, but one thing for sure is you know what you should do next better than any teacher. The teacher might be able to point out patterns, but your journey is yours and you are the authority. That is critical if a path isn't pointing there.
Brett: It might even be that eventually you reach the same conclusions that you are currently resisting, but the process of your resistance is where you are going to find what actually is true for you and not just take it from granted and then adopt a belief system that suppresses some aspect of your reality that if, fully felt, would ultimately perhaps result in having agreement with this person.
Joe: There are some others in there that are more direct. One of the things you just mentioned was we have to save the world. That's a pretty big flag. Only we can do it. That's a pretty big flag. There is an us and them component. We have to save the world from billionaires or from close minded people or from climate change. That kind of urgency and anxiety behind the spiritual tradition also shows some level of dysfunction.
I have seen one male teacher only teaching females and telling the females not to talk to their husbands or boyfriends about what happens in the room. Secrecy, non transparency. You can't go all transparent, meaning let's say you have a weeklong retreat. You don't want everybody telling everybody what's in that weeklong retreat because then you destroy things for other people, and there are certain really hard core practices. You don't want people out there just throwing them around because other folks can get hurt. This is the hardest thing for me to actually go there. We ask for people to ask permission from us to use our work, and that gives us the chance to be in communication with them to see if they are ready, to see how dangerous it is going to be and to give them a path to share the work. That's one of the hardest things we have found. On one level you want full transparency, but on another level you have an obligation both to the work and to the people who touch it. That's another one. Because some of them say you hit this level and then you get this door opened and then people in level 7 are better than people in level 5, that's a pretty big sign that there's some dysfunction going on.
13:55 Brett: Just another example there, if you have one person who is supposedly at a certain level and then they are the ones, because of that, that are capable of seeing what level others are at and they are the sole decision maker. This is difficult. What is a CEO? There are a lot of ways this paradox comes up in life, not just in a personal development practice. Another one is this shows up as feigned reluctance of being in the role. Somebody who says I have to do this, but it is not my choice. The world needs me to do this. I wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for the fact that it is required of me.
Joe: There is a weirdness there because that's to some degree my experience. I don't feel like I have to do it by any stretch and I don't feel like the world is asking me to do it, but there is an experience of choicelessness in it and that this is my calling. There was indeed a reluctance to it. At the same time, me being reluctant created a lot of dysfunction. I remember earlier on there was this learning that I had. I thought I don't have power here because I am constantly pointing to everyone else to be their own authority. In that, I created quite a bit of dysfunction. I had to learn power is when people think you have power. That's all power is. I have it because people think I have it. To be able to own that and to walk in that space instead of denying it was really important. I created a lot of dysfunction by not doing that.
On some level, I can definitely feel that I was pushed or pulled into this situation. There is a choicelessness in it, and there is a choice you made. It is an ownership of that, and you have to be functional about that. There is a bit of a balance there, but I understand what you are pointing to, for sure.
Brett: There is an expansiveness or a contraction around it. When I notice myself feel a contraction, other people in the group will feel a contraction. That's when I feel the teacher or facilitator. If they feel some sort of threat about what happens if they don't do this because the world will X or it is needed, if there is some self importance in it that's not being owned, but if it is being owned, like they love feeling important and also they don't need you to see them as important. I feel this stuff is very important but I don't take it so seriously as to say I know what is best for others and the world and what the world needs. There is arrogance in that. The world is suffering, and it needs to stop suffering. I am qualified to determine that. Therefore, we who have this secret knowledge are the ones who are needed. Somewhere in there there is a constriction where I feel myself close down, and I can feel the constriction in the group. There is fear in it. The world is dangerous and we have got to do this.
Joe: What I really liked in there was a potential pointer in there of ownership like if they say they think this is important to me. I don't want to do that but I don't feel like I have a choice is very different than I don't have a choice. There is an ownership of their experience. I think that in general when I see teachers who own their experience as theirs and not other people's, that's a pretty good sign in general. That's another one. A teacher that always sees that they are learning is another really good sign, constantly in a place of learning.
Brett: I guess that relates back to the delegation of authority. If the teacher is delegating their authority to what is needed externally from them, rather than what is coming through them and feels like what they want and what they need. When we are in deep contact with who we are, we don't really know what we are going to do next. It's not that predictable. It comes from this place of having no idea what's going to happen next and I feel called into this. This is what I want to do now. When there isn't an ownership of that where you are doing that because it is externally necessary that you do that, then that feels like where the ownership falls away.
Joe: I think that's a really good pointer of a teaching I would have a lot more respect and trust for and what I would feel has more function is when they are not supplying certainty to folks. If a teacher is supplying certainty, then they are just creating another framework instead of helping people see through all of the frameworks. The freedom doesn't come from buying one set of thoughts. The freedom comes from not buying any thoughts. That's very scary because most people are looking for some sort of ground and certainty. It is much easier to sell certainty than it is to sell lack of certainty, but the functional teaching is not selling certainty. As a matter, there is this great Hindu, I think, tradition where they say in the path one of the last things that goes away is the teacher and then the teaching, meaning that you have to see through the scripture and that none of the scripture is right and you have to see through the teacher and that the teacher isn't right to get to what they would call freedom. I think that's a path that sees uncertainty as a really important step in the process and it is a really good sign of functionality rather than this is the way and it is finished.
Brett: I would almost even say that it feels to me that is not just the last thing to fall away but that's also part of the process of it working, to see through the things. Another piece I see here, which can be a red flag, is what the promise is. If the promise of the path is some clear end state that everybody seems to be constantly seeking or there is something magical about it, whether it is enlightenment or awakening and it is not just about what the words are but there is a state of attachment, and then your problems and suffering will end. Then you are good enough. That's another thing I watch for because that will continue forever. You can do all kinds of work on yourself and move a lot of trauma and still continuously organize your momentary experience around something that hasn't arrived yet in the future and around the notion that the present isn't actually good enough.
Joe: What's interesting is what is dawning on me in this process is I am thinking about friends of mine who have a really deep and meaningful Christian, Muslim or Buddhist experience where there is this feeling of certainty in them. There is some way in which I've seen some people in those experiences where it feels like the authority is being handed over and there is some people in those experiences where the authority isn't being handed over, meaning you can have a relationship with Christ as a direct relationship with Christ and this is where I go for the authority, in that relationship, as compared to this is my relationship with Christ, which is what exactly agrees with my interpretation of the Bible. There is a way in which a certainty can happen in a religious context, but there is still this individual authority in it, the direct relationship with the meditation. Buddha said don't trust me. Trust your direct experience. I think the relationship with Christ or Mohammad or in the Buddhist context, it is not saying you can't have that framework. It is asking if this particular form of Christianity is pointing you back to your relationship with God, if this is pointing back to your experience or if this is one of those forms of Christiniaty where it is the follow the leader, don't trust your own, follow the rules, and that kind of thing.
I want to make sure that people aren't thinking all the ways of being religious are not beautiful.
Brett: To bring in a different example to show this isn't even about religion, there can be the Western societal pattern of work hard all of your life to save for a future retirement and because of that, not be really present and enjoying your life now as it actually is with an eye to the future. It is the same thing. If somebody is selling me a product that will eventually get me to a place but it is just a treadmill, then that's a red flag. Maybe I will go on that path for a while and learn something about myself, and it will be ultimately healthy for me to have had that experience.
24: 20 Joe: Let's go into that. I think there are a lot of places that whatever we are talking about here is actually part of every part of our existence, but before we do, I want to talk about how these religious paths and traditions go sideways. One of the biggest misnomers there is this teacher is a bad teacher or this teacher went berserk as if it is not a relationship between the teacher and the people and as if it is not a group decision that's being made. We talked about this earlier so I want to bring it back to this, but there are lots of versions of this, which is, as a teacher, you get attacked quite a bit. People ask what is wrong with you sitting up there, thinking you can have authority. People are looking at everything. Look at what you did. That shows that your consciousness is fucked up. All of that stuff happens. There are people right now listening to this podcast criticizing what was just said.
Brett: Absolutely.
Joe: What that typically does is create defense is people. A good example of this is I've been thinking about doing more YouTube and Instagram stuff and putting myself out there. I looked at three or four people I respected who started putting content out there, and I noticed they all went a little berserk. I think there are two reasons they all went a little berserk. The first one is they have to put out new content all of the time and people like listening to people who are certain, so they put out their content with certainty. They believe in their own certainty it seems like. Therefore, they just start thinking they know more and more than they actually know. That is part of the berserk process.
But part of it is everybody attacks them, and then they get more and more defensive and armored. They become more and more narcissistic. It is a relationship with the audience, with the [unclear]. A lot of people want somebody with a halo, somebody who is perfect. Then they maybe even want to bring them down, take them down. The other thing is it is incredibly lonely. When people view me as their authority and they are trying to please me, they are not being with me. They forget I am human with a heart and I am a person. There is a way in which they sever connection with me. Part of the process if you are in a tradition is to treat the person like a human, not like trying to prove if they are the right authority or not. You are the authority and when you know that, you don't need to prove it. You can be with them as humans with their ups and downs and goods and bads. Even if your teacher has some crazy ass power that you ask what the fuck is going on, like people see me do these rapid fire coaches and say wow, that guy's insight. He just knocked somebody into their biggest issue in three minutes. How did he do that? I am still human and not finished. I am still growing. I think that's true for every teacher I have met, no matter what they present as these powerful things they can do, these healings or whatever it is, these insights. I think that relationship back and forth between is really important.
Then the other piece that's really important is we have gone to Burning Man and people say they have been going to Burning Man for 15 years, and somebody else says they have been going to Burning Man for 20 years. You see that happening around a teacher or teaching where people start defining how good they are by how long they have been with the teacher or teaching or how close they are to the teacher. That is super dysfunctional whether the teacher is aware of it or not, that kind of gatekeeping, ownership and identification. Super dangerous. That has nothing to do with the teacher. The teacher might not have the knowledge to know they have to stop that. That's another one.
Brett: A fascinating pattern I have seen, and this isn't universal but a pattern I have seen that a group has gone wonky is often the right hand person had the most distortion and brought the most sinister stuff to the group, the most control. Perhaps they are the one that has to maintain their position vis-a-vis another person rather than through their divine claim to authority. Whether it is the single second person in command or a number of people in the group, people can come to this work and say Joe is an amazing coach. I want to be a great coach. They go through a bunch of courses. I did this. How quickly can I use this and do these things myself? I started sitting down with my friends and coaching the shit out of them without permission.
I don't see how any teacher could avoid that occurring, especially the larger your organization, practice, group or saga grows. There are going to be a number of people taking it and trying to use it with the best of intentions.
Joe: It gets even weirder because usually the right hand person likes control because they are good at organizing shit. That's what makes them the right hand person. They can get a lot of shit done and organize a lot. That tendency for control also serves the group, but it can also turn into crazy wonkiness because the control gets hyper, protective and all that good stuff. It is a totally interesting phenomenon. There is this other thing that happens, too, which is when you do cede your authority to a group, there is a feeling of safety to it. There is a feeling of being loved and accepted. There is a feeling of belonging that happens to it. You see this in many, many religions. Here is this way we all agree on this thing together, and, therefore, we are safe and we can support each other. It is a thing to be able to give that same kind of support, love and sense of belonging without ceding your authority. It is a walk to take. Like you said, this is not just in religious, spiritual or self development things. This goes into all parts of society.
Brett: We all want to be on the inside of something. It feels safe there. It is especially easy to feel on the inside of something if there is an outside and others, but there doesn't have to be.
32:08 Joe: Big red flag there. Let's talk about how all of this happens not just in teachings and paths. One of the most obvious ones is this every political rant ever. There is a good guy, us, and there is a bad guy. Pick A) billionaire, B) radical left, C) fascist right or progressives. There is always a bad guy and a good guy, us against them. There is always fear lurking around the corner. The world needs us or the whole thing is going to fall apart. There is no transparency. It is we know and they don't know. You are ceding your authority over to some religious or political figure instead of thinking for yourself or some news channel. It happens exactly there, and what is really interesting is in our society right now, which I was just reading about, cults used to just be religious cults. Now there are political cults. It happens there. It happens in companies, in marriages, everywhere.
Brett: Also around national identity. This is also on brand for our podcast with a lot of entrepreneurs listening. Look at the common wisdom about how to write a pitch deck for fundraising. There is this big problem that needs to be solved. There are inevitable consequences to it not being solved, but only we can solve it. This is the team that can solve it. Underneath that, there is seeing the herd dynamics in investors and using some FOMO to get everybody to dive in on this investment before they miss out. That's just how things are done. The same thing occurs in marketing if you look at a billboard for a beauty ad.
Joe: It is sexy. Here is a way that we are special. The whole thing pitches a way in which we are special, and you can be a part of this special thing. We are special because there are others who aren't like us. It is an us against them. We are the only ones. There is the inevitably a crisis if we don't handle this. Oh my god, everybody is going to smell you and you are going to smell horrible if you don't use our deodorant. It is literally the same thing. The reason it is the same thing is that a lot of folks want to own your authority because they think it is going to make them happy. They want to decide for you to buy the deodorant.
What's really interesting is that there are some really great books on this. This happens in a lot of companies. I've seen companies when I go in and work with folks in companies. I've seen companies with very cult-like experiences. They all have this very clear identity. There is a bad guy and a good guy. There is a time limit and inevitability unless they do X, Y and Z. They firmly believe it. To some degree, that's incredibly motivating for them. Another thing is that it makes for very fragile companies. What I've seen is the really robust companies are those in great debate, and there is great data on this. My favorite is the Aristotle Project done by Google where they really talk about how a team with really free debate, everybody feels comfortable debating, how all voices can be heard no matter how contrarian the view point is and how this makes the most functional teams.
It is the same thing with religious traditions or the self development traditions. You can get a lot of benefit from dysfunctional paths. There are a lot of cool tools and great learning. I have gone into some consciously knowing there is some cool stuff in here and not paying attention to these things. I got in, learned some stuff and got out. There is a lot of benefit to them. I think what happens as humans is we know on some level this is wonky, but there is some benefit I am not ready to give up yet. Sometimes that wonkiness gets us instead of us getting out before it is too late.
Brett: I am also curious to speak about this in terms of relationships. A controlling partner, an abusive partner is the one who says they love you, baby, and you don't need those friends anymore. Everyone else is out there trying to get us. Then there are some of the more romantic things. It is you and me versus the world, without any of the other stuff.
Joe: There is the social isolating, and that's abusive. I would say 90% of the relationships I have seen, there is an agreement that this person is the smart one and this one person is the not so smart one. This one is the intelligent one, and this one is the emotional one. There is the ceding of authority all of the time. I can't do that because I need him or her to be happy.
Brett: Or they couldn't live without me.
Joe: All of the time somebody's need for control around a certain subject inside of a marriage creates this same kind of level of dysfunction, using the same tools, using the exact same tools. What's cool about this and what lets you see it is subconscious in most of the marriages that this is happening. It is subconscious that it is happening in most companies and in different spiritual traditions. I have met a couple but very few of these people are consciously saying they know how to manipulate a bunch of people using pathos, egos, and ethos. They are going to do an us against them. Some of it is happening, but most of the time the politician who is saying it actually thinks it. They actually think there is somebody who is going to come and get them. Not all of them, but some of them. It is just amazing. Obviously there are those that are manipulating people for the cash.
Brett: There are ways that it is real. If you get into politics, there is going to be mud slung. If you are looking for a place where there is an us versus them in your life, get into politics.
39:45 Joe: I think the last piece on this one, which is all of this is a projection of our own consciousness, which is why I said you might get into a dysfunctional situation but it is often the thing you need to learn. This is all happening inside of us. Most of us have a very strong voice in the head, and we believe that voice in the head when it says you have to do this or you are going to be in pain. It is only you that can do it. Why haven't you gotten off the couch? All of those exact same things, the us vs them, the have to do it, the urgency, that's all happening from the voice in our head talking to ourselves. All of this is just a projection. It all falls apart when you see it in yourself and when you can no longer believe the urgency, the us and them from the voice in your head, the authority of the voice in your head telling you to exercise more. You are right, and I am the bad person who isn't doing it. That whole dynamic is happening inside of us. When you see through the dynamic and the voice in your head, you don't fall for any of this. You don't watch an ad and think everybody will love because I have thinner thighs or whatever crap it is.
Brett: And everybody loving me matters because I don't love myself. We are getting close to time here, but I have one more place I would like to apply this. How has this shown up for you as a parent?
Joe: Goodness, gracious. Holy crap. I haven't thought about that. This is where most of my attention goes to parenting, for teeangers anyways. When kids are young, you are the authority and you should be. That's how it works. Teaching them how to sleep and eat, how to be with their emotional experiences, it is your job and you are the authority. Whether you ignore it or not, you are training them. Being conscious about it and being forthright in it is, I think, really important.
As they get older, the main thing you want to do is teach them how to be their own authority. I often just didn't give compliments to kids. There is some good research on this. It was so counter to how I thought it was going to be and how I thought I should have done it. Kids get their homework done, and I don't say good job. They get excited, and I say I see how excited they are. I will be excited with them because I don't want them to do their homework because I said that's a good job. I want them to learn to listen to themselves. That's why today my girls do their work without any nagging whatsoever. I literally had one of my daughters tell me she has gotten straight As and you have never congratulated me. I said I am so sorry. I told her how proud I was of her and I realized the work that was put into it. Maybe I overcorrected there.
It was so important for me to have them be able to listen to themselves and not tell them what to do. I had the exact opposite happen with Esme recently, which is crazy. Esme wanted to do a project, and I said cool, do it and I will support you. It just wasn't happening. It wasn't getting done. At some point, I told her I didn't want to support her because it is not getting done. She told me what she needed was for me to tell her exactly what to do. She said she had never done this before and had no idea. She needed me to tell her exactly what to do the first time. I said okay, and literally we walked through a pipeline process to find cool experiences she could have, step by step. She wrote the email, and I read the email and gave her feedback. Every step, she asked who I should send it to and how I should send it. Now she is doing it on her own and doesn't need my help at all. She is running the process, but she literally needed me, and I didn't want to tell her out to do it. I wanted her to be her own authority.
Brett: The authority in me says this is what I wanted.
Joe: This is what I want. I think it was probably really important for us to get into a place where she just asked for it because then I wasn't nagging. I wasn't telling her how to do things. She had taken the step of asking me, which was really critical. This is a huge part. I see so many kids either rebelling against what their parents want or trying to please their parents and not having learned their own authority. By the time they are 17 or 18 years old, I think it is really important for their self confidence to learn they are in charge of their choices and they get to make mistakes and screw up.
Brett: They get to call in other authorities when it serves them. They can bring that into awareness and not just have it be a default, subconscious pattern of someone else knows better and I need this.
Joe: That's right. That's what I watch my girls do is walk around and look for good advice, which was always my hope. I was so ignorant that way. Because I had such a crappy relationship with authority, I thought all authority was bad. I never got really great advice throughout my life. I was surrounded by great people who could have given me great advice. I am really happy that they have that capacity to do that and at the same time know what is right in front of them.
Brett: Beautiful teachings. I am really glad that we are so one hundred percent air tight correct about everything.
Joe: [laughing] Certainly. Under all contexts, for every person.
Brett: Thank you, everybody, for listening. I really enjoyed this, Joe.
Joe: Pleasure.
Brett: If you are listening to this and there is something catching in you and you have a question, please send it to us. You can tweet it to us at artofaccomp. You can also send us an email at podcast@artofaccomplishment.com or visit the website and reach out through there. That's also where you can find our courses and anything else about us, coaching and all of our other offerings. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, everybody. I really loved this conversation. This was a good one.
Joe: Talk to you soon.