Khe: I always trusted myself. Give me a scorecard, I'm going to find a way to rack up points on it. But when you remove that, I'm not sure I trust myself. That's one of those moments that I won't be able to unhear in a good way.
Episode Intro: Welcome back to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease. Today's episode is a coaching session between Joe and a man named Khe. Khe wanted to explore his relationship with money and ultimately finds a number of scorecards that he's used to manage and navigate his life.
And we find out what happens without a scorecard. If you want to watch the video version of this session, check out the link below to our YouTube account, which is The Art of Accomplishment. Check it out and enjoy the episode.
Joe: Hi, Khe. Good to see you.
Khe: Hello Joe.
Joe: So what do you want to do a coaching session on today?
Khe: Oh, we've talked a lot about my relationship with money. I think that's one difficult part in my life. I'd say that's one. Another one that I realized recently is just this ongoing need for validation.
And I think it's I look at my career where I chased money and status for a while and achieved some of those and then very quietly said I don't care about those things, but instead I want likes and attention and notoriety and people to talk about me. And so I wonder, there's definitely a grasping and a clinging there. So that would be another, they're probably related, but that would be another area of interest.
Joe: Yeah. And just what's the relationship with money now? How would you describe it? And what's the thing that doesn't feel aligned about it?
Khe: I think that intellectually, I'm fine with the amount of money that I have. If I just show up, do my thing, invest semi-normally, me and my kids will be fine.
Joe: Yeah no, I don't care about the intellect. Tell me about the, what's the emotional component?
Khe: The emotional component is that there's still some kind of scorecard that I keep in my head. And self worth kind of oscillates with that. Like the market's been up a few days, I'm like, oh, it's like, feel a little bit better about everything.
Joe: I see. Yeah.
Khe: But it's really that kind of scoreboarding. I'm always looking at other people and it's oh, I'm, there's this feeling where I'm like, oh, I'm better because I have more financial success, but I also know intellectually that it's a. I will lose that game, like in the long run, and it's very, feels problematic.
Joe: Great, okay. What if there was no scorecard? If you just literally couldn't believe in a scorecard, every scorecard you were just like, it's not at all accurately assessing in your heart, in your body. If there was no scorecard, what would you have to sit with?
Khe: I think I'd be lost. I think, yeah, I would be, I'd be rudderless.
Joe: Yeah, that's great. How does it feel to be rudderless?
Khe: It's funny, you like as you said that, it's like this, like when you drop on a rollercoaster and your stomach catches up with you on the drop, that's what I felt in that moment.
Joe: How is that feeling different than freedom?
Khe: That, that feeling is, it's almost, it's a derivative of getting punched in the gut.
Joe: Yeah, so let's say you jump off of, you bungee jump off of a bridge and you have that exhilaration of oh, I'm flying. How is it different?
Khe: It's only the scary part of it, not the exhilarating part of it. So it's the, is the bungee gonna, is the bungee gonna hold or...
Joe: Let's say it doesn't, let's say you actually find out with 100 percent certainty that there is no scorecard. There's no way of describing your worth accurately.
Khe: It feels it's scary because I feel like I don't know myself in that world.
Joe: Yeah, right. So there's this thing that they do now called like a darkness thing. Have you heard about this? Where you basically go into, so you put a mask on and then you get put into a cave and you're like just in the cave. It's pretty luxurious, but like you're in on with a mask in a dark cave. You can't see anything for like days on end and I'm just going to ask you to imagine that is your life forever. What would be the scorecard? You still exist.
Khe: So you're in this cave and you can't see, right?
Joe: Can't see. It's dark. The weather, the temperature is the same. There's no outside interaction. All that's happening is what's happening inside of you. You have all your needs met. What's the scorecard?
Khe: Survival?
Joe: Yeah, you got food, comfortable bed, five star hotel. It's just no interaction.
Khe: There's, like literally what's around the corner, because what's lurking behind the corner?
Joe: Alright, that's great. Awesome. If you're enough, what does that do to change your capacity to what's lurking behind the corner. If you're enough, if you're validated, if you have enough check marks, likes dollars in the bank account, women, whatever, friends, loved ones, whatever, acolytes. If you have enough of those, how does that help you deal with what's around the corner
Khe: I think, in that situation, it's as if it doesn't seem like it matters because it really does, nothing's going to, I really feel like my survival is at risk, even though, it's a four seasons that you've described. And it's almost like no one cares whatever threat is lurking around the corner, no one cares about your SAT score or your business card.
So the answer doesn't matter.
Joe: What specifically is trying to survive?
Khe: I think that my, my body like my physical body, I think it's, I know,
Joe: if you knew you, if you're physically being safe, what would, then, if you had 100 percent transparency and clarity that you were going to be physically safe. For the next 30 years. We're all gonna die. The only thing that's actually certain is that you're not physically safe. But let's just assume that, 30 years, you're physically safe. What's scared? What's left to be scared of in this dark room?
Khe: Loneliness.
Joe: And what dies in the loneliness? What dies if you have no scorecard?
Khe: I think when you ask it that way, it's almost like the scorecard ensures human connection. It lets people see that I'm here. Right? I'm here. I'm good. I'm alive, right? It's a, it's like I'm waving a sign at a protest, right? It's I'm here look at me, pay attention to me.
Joe: Yeah. The thing that's interesting about yours, the scorecards you choose, they can be taken away from you.
Khe: Yeah.
Joe: They're not completely within your control.
Khe: Yeah.
Joe: What would be the internal scorecard that says I'm good, I'm valid, that can't be taken away from you?
Khe: My, my ability to love others that can't be taken away. It also can't be measured.
Joe: Can't be measured accurately, but yeah, there's a definitely a different sensation in one's body if you have a capacity to love or if you have more or less of a capacity to love.
Khe: Yeah, absolutely. What can't be taken away ability?
Joe: That you can measure that like that says, Hey, I'm good. I'm valuable. So right now you're entering into this kind of spacious is what it looks like to me.
Khe: Yeah.
Joe: So from that place, can you describe the bank account? Don't go into your intellect. Just in that spacious, like that recognition of the truth of who you are that creates a lot of silence in your system from that perspective. What does that? What does that see or know about your bank account?
Khe: It feels very, it doesn't matter or disconnected, unconnected. I think there's a part that wants to grasp, but I'm not feeling the urge to grasp. I think my intellect's saying grab for it, grab it, but it's not really appealing.
Joe: Yeah. Just a reminder, so just go back to that question of what is the scorecard that can't be taken away from you, the internal one?
Khe: There's still something about safety coming up.
Joe: Yeah, this experience is not safe. No, right? It's going to be gone. So therefore it's fleeting. The thing that's observing this experience is going to be gone. Your body is going to be gone. There's nothing safe about this. It just admits it. The bank account doesn't admit it.
Khe: I feel like the first thing that comes up is what can I do in this moment? What can I think about? What can I say to feel safe?
Joe: Yeah. And does that put points on the board or take them away from the internal scorecard?
Khe: I think it's
Joe: Pay attention to the internal scorecard. That's not an intellectual thing. It's just, and if you have the thought, what do I have to do to be safe? And let's do A/B test against the thought process of, oh, I'm never safe. Which one puts points on the board?
Khe: Or I'd be doing stuff to be safe
Joe: In the moment, not the future, in the moment. I'm not saying that's not right. I'm just saying in this moment, if you go, oh, I have to do something to be safe. Does that take you away? Does it bring you closer? Does it put the points on the board? Does it take them away in the moment?
Khe: The moment it, I don't, it doesn't feel necessary.
Joe: Yeah. Does it make you feel safer to have the thought in the moment?
Khe: To have which thought?
Joe: What do I have to do to be safe or what can I do to be safer? Does that increase the sensation of safety in the moment or decrease it?
Khe: Decrease or no change, but not increase.
Joe: What do you suspect your life would look like if all you did was just pay attention to this scorecard instead of the. Likes instead of the bank account, instead of the kicking ass and surfing, whatever it is. Dad's approval.
Khe: The first word that comes to mind is like meandering or wayward.
Joe: It's that lost feeling because you don't have a scorecard kind of thing.
Khe: Yeah. It's like the scorecard is the map, so to speak.
Brett: Yeah.
Khe: But also there's like a, there's a glimpse into freedom, right? But it's just a glimpse. It's not a full throated.
Joe: What if this is a compass and all it can do is just point where north is or point in the direction you're supposed to go, but it's, there's no map.
Khe: I trust it. Not fully, but I'm willing to play.
Joe: Yeah. So you followed the first map, which was money. It didn't get you where you wanted to go. You're following the second map, which is likes, which clearly isn't getting you where you want to go, or we wouldn't be talking about it. Where do you want to go?
Khe: It is hard, it's hard to describe with words 'cause I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a thing. Yeah. I don't think it's a container.
Joe: And this compass that's like when you pay attention to the internal scorecard, how far away are you from the thing you want to be?
Khe: Internal score card. Can you say that again please?
Joe: Yeah. I'm gonna do it in steps. So the question is, what's the scorecard that can't be taken away from you and it looked like we were thinking that it's like a compass. It's you just know what's true for you. What brings you closer to yourself or further away from yourself.
Khe: It's a peace of sorts.
Joe: Yeah. So go there, pay attention to that compass or scorecard or whatever you want to call it. How close is that to the place you want the map to take you?
Khe: I can't tell if it's this is just the place meaning there is nowhere to go or just trusting it or listening to it, it will get me to the place. If that makes sense?
Joe: Yeah
Khe: So is it just this way of existing or is it this way of existing being that eventually reveals the ultimate destination?
Joe: What makes that a dichotomy instead of a both and? In there, there's an assumption of a dichotomy. What makes you assume a dichotomy?
Khe: I think that there is some element of not moving, is I guess the first thing I was like, not moving is bad, right? And so, so the dichotomy is that, that being and just being with that internal compass is insufficient in if it doesn't actually move you to some other place.
Joe: Yeah. What's the part of you that's never been, I don't need an answer as much as can you, how do you get in touch with the part of you right now that has never been moved, that has never been touched, that has never been affected, that is, or the part of you that's always been there the same way since the beginning till now?
Khe: Do you mean to connect with that part?
Joe: Yeah. And now tell it that it has to move, and I want to hear what its response is. You have to move to be valuable. You have to get somewhere to be valuable.
Khe: It's saying, it's basically scared of the authority figure, the person giving the order, saying like, where do you want me to go? Just tell me. It's almost like it has no agency. When it's just waiting to be told. I'm scared. Fear comes up often.
Joe: Yeah. When you were a kid, how often did the rules of the game change? The game of getting attention and approval, which is what every kid does. You can open your eyes if you want. How often did the rules of the game change?
Khe: I feel like with my parents it was very transparent, in that they were pretty consistent about what the rules were. Yeah. I think,
Joe: Yeah, but when you did it, did you get the reward?
Khe: There weren't a lot of attaboys in growing up.
Joe: So the goalposts constantly moved. There's no winning. Like, how did you win? Tell me about one time that you won with your parents. Where you felt like, I fucking won. I got it. Done.
Khe: I think when they caved and bought me a Nintendo.
Joe: When you got them to do what you wanted them to do.
Khe: Or oftentimes it was like, buy me what I wanted them to buy. I think that was very much the conflict is I want this. And it's do well in school and then you can have all the X, all the Nintendos you want in the world. So I never thought of it as the goalposts moving, but I guess that's like the ultimate example.
Joe: Yeah. It makes sense why you chased money first. Winning was when you got what you wanted financially.
Khe: And that feels very salient. I basically remember my parents saying no to anything that I ever wanted. Like physical, non survival needs toys, clothes, games, comic books, that stuff. And I remember a fierce determination. It was like, no one's ever going to tell me what I can and cannot have. Yeah, it was like, I started making money when I was 13 years old.
Joe: Yeah. How about just say this sentence out loud for me, which is nobody's can ever tell me that I can or cannot have safety.
Khe: Nobody's ever going to tell me that I can or cannot have safety.
Joe: What happens in your system when you say that?
Khe: A little bit of that bungee jumping plunge. Not as strong.
Joe: What made it so clear in your system about the money but not so clear in your system about the safety?
Khe: I never, I rarely felt safe as a kid. And that was because I had to walk to and from school by myself. And you could get jumped. And I got jumped a handful of times.
Joe: Yeah, me too.
Khe: I never, I hated walking. Yeah. And Yeah, I hated that feeling.
Joe: But what you weren't doing was taking MMA classes at 13. You were earning money at 13. What was the, what created the determination around the money and not the safety? Cause you meet people who are just like, yeah, I'm not going to feel unsafe. And they learn how to kick ass.
Khe: Yeah. I think part of it is probably cultural where, being of Asian descent, my parents are very nonconfrontational, very kind of scared of authority figures.
Joe: So the difference is, it sounds like, tell me how off I am here. The difference was your parents taught you and were confident in the fact that you could do what you needed to do to be able to buy any Nintendo you ever wanted, but they were not confident in the fact that you could be safe. Safety was not something that they saw was a possibility for you.
Khe: I think, there was zero, zero talk ever in our family about self defense, fighting, fighting back.
Joe: I mean safety even in a broader sense. How much did your parents conceive the idea that they could be safe as a real possibility.
Khe: I don't think they'll ever truly believe that.
Joe: Yeah.
Khe: I know my dad for sure.
Joe: Yeah. And how much did they believe that they could be well off that they could have financial security, buy all the Nintendos?
Khe: Yeah, I definitely more than safety. I remember, my dad, like many parents have this aphorism that sticks with you forever. And so my dad's for us was we may not be the smartest, but we're the hardest working. You got me. You nailed me pretty well with that one dad.
Joe: Yeah. Okay, so where do you go when you get to the top of the mountain? Where does the map take you?
Khe: It so often looks for another mountain to scale. I think there's something about kind of idleness being like it makes you a target. Like a sitting duck of sorts.
Joe: The scorecards, the money, the likes, whatever the scorecard is, what happens when you get there? When you get to the top of that mountain, where do you go? What like you talked about like a wayward feeling like?
Khe: Yeah, I think you're hit with this kind of wave of dissatisfaction in the sense of, that's it. This is the thing, like kind of the classic you on a treadmill type stuff, but wow that's it.
Joe: I have a question for you. So that sensation of I'm there, like I'm at the top of the mountain or that moment where you went internal and you saw the scorecard, the internal scorecard that can be taken away. See what it's like, take a moment to feel internally, there's no place for me to go and I'm lost. Put those two together. You felt it earlier in the session, but put those together for a second. I have no idea where to go and I'm lost. And now put together, I have no idea where to go and I'm not lost. I know exactly where I am.
Khe: The first thing that like popped up really loud was the word trust. It's almost like in giant letters. It's there is this, it's do I trust myself? And when I'm on top of the mountain, I, for some reason, when you asked that, I was I was on top of the wall street mountain. That's where I was visualizing myself. And I definitely did not trust anything about the situation other than my ability to make more money.
Joe: Yeah, so what if that's the scorecard? How much you trust yourself?
Khe: That was like both deflating and inspiring at the same time.
Joe: What did it deflate?
Khe: It's so much easier to trust than a scorecard. The works, the works done for you is what, it's, yeah, it's trust that, I don't, I'm not sure I trust myself.
Joe: What if that's a scorecard? You put score, you put points on the board the more you trust yourself. Points lead, your bank account is self trust. Or your likes or self trust.
Khe: It feels pretty fucking awesome, which is weird because I always trusted myself when there was a scorecard. It was like, if give me a scorecard, I'm going to find a way to rack up points on it. So there's tremendous amount of trust there. Yeah, but when you remove that, I'm like, oh, wait it's like all these conflicting, it's like you trust yourself, there's all these, that's why I was like deflating and inflating.
Joe: Yeah.
Khe: Simultaneously.
Joe: Yeah.
Khe: Whoo. What if trusting yourself? That's one of those moments that I won't be able to unhear in a good way.
Joe: Yeah. There's one other just piece that I want to speak to about it, which is a tree doesn't have a goal, but it keeps on evolving. Like the idea that you could stop evolving is, the only way you could stop evolving is by dying. There's this fear that oh, I don't, I won't keep on going if I trust myself, or if I listen to that internal scorecard or whatever it is, there's that idea as if like your strain is required to evolve.
You did the most evolution in your life from 0 to 8 years old and you weren't consciously trying to get someplace. You probably did your least evolving, in Wall Street, between 28 and 38 years old, then you were striving the whole time. They're not correlated is what I'm saying. Sometimes correlated, sometimes not.
What do you think, what do you think happens to your evolution if your scorecard is trusting yourself? The more you trust yourself and you get really good at it, you do the same thing you did with the money, the same thing that you did with the likes. And you just your scorecard was how much you can trust your authentic self.
Khe: Yeah.
Joe: What do you think happens to your evolution?
Khe: The first thing I thought is, it feels like being on drugs. In a good way.
Joe: Yeah. I know, yeah.
Khe: It's almost like the racehorses with the blinders. It's like you just, you could move them five degrees wider and completely change the aperture of sight. That's what it feels like. It feels really exciting.
Joe: Awesome.
Khe: Can I ask one question?
Joe: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Khe: I'm scared that, see, here it comes. I feel like when I'm like deeply present and following your smooth radio voice. And it's like I'm gonna get, I'm gonna, go and get back on log into whatever I log into and then, this will be really salient, for a couple of days and then it will start to fade a bit and then in two weeks, three weeks will be a distant memory.
Joe: Do you know any scorecard that doesn't work that way? Ebbs and flows of the market. You forget it. You obsess over it for a while.
Khe: Is there, how does one, the thing that came to mind is,
Joe: how did you do it with money?
Khe: It's a mantra, which would be,
Joe: How did you do it with money? How did you remind yourself religiously to make money?
Khe: By breathing.
Joe: Right? What do you think would have happened if you would have asked me How do I remember? How do I keep on remembering that I need to make money on Wall Street? What do you think? How successful would you have been?
Khe: Yeah, it's just the, it's the water you swim in, right? The oxygen you breathe. Yeah. But the imprint of money is 44 years, and the imprint of trust is one, one hour.
Joe: Let's see if that's, let's see if that's true. So we have this metric that we just found out, which is like trust. Points on the board are how well am I, how am I trusting myself? That's how we score it. How long, now that we have that scorecard, can you look back and tell me how long you've been playing that game? If I asked your wife, how long has Khe been working on trusting himself, what would her answer be?
Khe: He's, he always has. Yeah. Or you're like, she might even be more extreme. It's it's just a part of who he is. Yeah, it was funny how I qualified that, right? It's like she might.
Joe: Yeah, so we're just looking, we're just looking at an orientation to a movement that you have in you naturally. Beautiful. And that's part of the thing is that fear distracts you from trusting yourself. Like in this moment, there was like putting points on the board of trusting yourself. Is Oh, I trust that I will be focused on this site. I trust that this landed. I trust that. And then of course it's going to ebb and flow. And of course you're going to go through moments of non trust and trust, but you crush every game that you have played. And you've been playing this game for a while. Now we just learned a new move and a cool metric. What a pleasure.
Khe: Thank you.
Joe: You're welcome.
Khe: It's awesome, man.
Joe: Good to be with you as always
Khe: You're good.
Joe: Thank you. What a pleasure.
Brett: Wow. That was amazing. Thank you, Khe, for showing us the man behind the scorecard. And thank you, Joe. Thank you, everybody. If you love this episode, share it with somebody. Remember, you can find the video version of this on our YouTube account at Art of Accomplishment till next time. Take care.